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Intellectual “Property” Versus Real Property

What Are Copyrights and What Do They Mean for Liberty?

By Sheldon Richman
Published: 12 June 2009
Intellectual “Property” Versus Real Property

Intellectual “property” (IP) is a sleeper issue. It seems uncontroversial: Someone invents or writes something and therefore owns it. What could be plainer? But IP contains the power to destroy liberty.

IP isn’t merely about rock bands preventing kids from sharing MP3s over the Internet. (See “Weird Al” Yankovic’s musical commentary, “Don’t Download This Song,” here.) It’s about crusty incumbent firms trying to preserve market share by stifling competition, domestically and in the developing world.

The crux of the issue is this: Do IP laws protect legitimately ownable things? One’s view of the laws will proceed from one’s answer to that question, and that’s what I will concentrate on here. I leave for another time the issue of incentives. I do so because the justice of a claim must be decided before we consider the specific incentives and disincentives that flow from our decision. (No, this does not make me a “nonconsequentialist.” Consequences figure in our basic conception of justice.) Suffice it to say that the existence of disincentive effects from the abolition of IP cannot furnish proof that it is legitimate. That question must be decided on its own terms. (On incentives and many other related issues, see Michele Boldrin and David Levine’s Against Intellectual Monopoly; also online. The authors, along with Alessandro Nuvolari, contributed Freeman articles on IP here and here.)

What does IP refer to? What exactly is owned? It is not ideas per se that are owned, according to the law. But what is owned seems problematic. Stephan Kinsella (pdf) points out that “Copyright gives [the creators of original works] the exclusive right to reproduce the work, prepare derivative works, or to perform or present the work publicly.” However, “Copyrights protect only the form or expression of ideas, not the underlying ideas themselves” (emphasis added). Patents, Kinsella continues, grant exclusive use in “devices or processes that perform a ‘useful’ function…. A patent effectively grants the inventor a limited monopoly on the manufacture, use, or sale of the invention. However, a patent actually only grants to the patentee the right to exclude (i.e., to prevent others from practicing the patented invention); it does not actually grant to the patentee the right to use the patented invention.” Importantly, “laws of nature, natural phenomena, and abstract ideas” cannot be patented (emphasis added). But, Kinsella notes, “Reducing abstract ideas to some type of ‘practical application,’ i.e., ‘a useful, concrete and tangible result,’ is patentable….”

Note that in both cases ideas are said not to be the object of intellectual property. And yet, ultimately, it is ideas that are at issue. For what is a “form or expression of ideas” if not an idea? And what is a “practical application” of an idea if not an idea? When someone holds a copyright to a novel, she does not own all copies of the book in the world. And when someone holds the patent to the widget, he does not own every widget in the world. There’s no escaping that IP is about ideas.

There is another way to look at IP, but it is even harder to square with traditional property rights. When one acquires a copyright or a patent, what one really acquires is the power to stop other people from doing certain things with what is indisputably their own property. One can say that a copyright holder doesn’t actually own anything but the legal authority to stop other people from using their own equipment to copy a book or CD they purchased. And one who holds a patent on the widget actually only has permission to call on the state to stop others from manufacturing and selling widgets in factories they own.

IP is a peculiar form of property, indeed.

Tangible Versus Intangible

There’s another peculiarity. Property rights in land and other tangible, finite, and scarce things emerged among human beings to facilitate cooperation and flourishing. Society can be a setting in which people trade and go about their business only if they generally know in advance what they can and cannot do with the material objects around them. Ludwig von Mises, F. A. Hayek, Bruno Leoni, Bruce Benson, and John Hasnas are just a few of the many scholars who have elaborated this point from a multidisciplinary perspective.

That prompts the question: Why assume that rules which emerged to avert social conflict over tangible objects are also appropriate to intangible things? I need not labor the point that ideas, or what Tom Palmer calls “ideal objects,” are different from material things. Two or more people cannot consume the same Coca Cola or develop the same parcel of land at the same time, but two or more people can possess and use the same idea at the same time. No one has put the issue better than Thomas Jefferson:

If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.

But aren’t ideas scarce in the sense that if I exploit one commercially, your opportunity to do so is reduced? This mixes up two issues: the “thing” and its economic value. You can never own economic value. A falling market price for your house is not proof you’ve been robbed. Likewise, if your income from a book or CD falls, that also is not proof you’ve been robbed.

Kevin Carson (pdf) elaborates:

It is sometimes argued, in response to attacks on patents as monopolies, that “all property is a monopoly.” True, as far as it goes; but tangible property is a monopoly by the nature of the case. A parcel of land can only be occupied and used by one owner at a time, because it is finite. By nature, two people cannot occupy the same physical space at the same time. “Intellectual property,” in contrast, is an artificial monopoly where scarcity would not otherwise exist. And unlike property in tangible goods and land, the defense of which is a necessary outgrowth of the attempt to maintain possession, enforcement of “property rights” in ideas requires the invasion of someone else’s space.

To Create Is Not to Own

Why is this approach resisted by so many advocates of freedom? A key reason is the importance attached to the act of creation. If someone writes or composes an original work or invents something new, the argument goes, he or she should own it because it would not have existed without the creator. I submit, however, that as important as creativity is to human flourishing, it is not the source of ownership of produced goods.

So what is the source? Prior ownership of the inputs through purchase, gift, or original appropriation. This is sufficient to establish ownership of the output. Ideas contribute no necessary additional factor. If I build a model airplane out of wood and glue, I own it not because of any idea in my head, but because I owned the wood, the glue, and myself. If Howard Roark’s evil twin trespassed on your land and, using your materials, built the most creatively original house ever seen, would he own it? Of course not. You would–and you’d have every right to tear it down.

Thus ceasing to treat ideas like property would not jeopardize real property. On the contrary, it would affirm it. Protection of intellectual “property” requires the violation of real property rights, since it forbids you to do certain things with your own CD or DVD burner and blank disks, your own copier and paper, and your own knowledge of production techniques and processes that are protected by state patents.

The last example is most crucial today, Kevin Carson writes, because of “[t]he growing importance of human capital [i.e., the ideas in people's heads], and the implosion of capital outlay costs required to enter the market….” In other words, the free society and competitive economy require an end to intellectual “property.”

87 Comments »

  1. If I think of an original idea and know that no one else has, then my
    idea is mine. I will not give up ownership of it; and by conjunction
    deny myself credit for that rare time I actually was “smart.”

    To do otherwise flies in the face of the First Amendment. Of course,
    Satan doesn’t care. That Socialist Beast controls and owns everything.

  2. If you come up with an idea, and want to retain sole “ownership” of it, then don’t tell anyone your idea! Once you tell someone, they now have it too. So keep your idea to yourself, and practice it only within the walls of your factory.

  3. Sheldon,I think you make a very convincing case for why intellectual property
    should not be considered something capable of being affording legal protections
    as a property right.

    Yet, can’t a law that requires the payment to commercial exploiters of someone elses
    invention or book be justified simply on the basis that without such payments
    everyone else would be getting the beneficiary of these ideas without having paid
    anything for their economic exploitation of the idea.(Neighborhood benefit effect)
    Moreover, doesn’t the expectation of royalty payments from producing new ideas induce people
    to spend their capital and time to write and invent things of value to all of us,
    which in the absence of such expectation of royalties, that person would not choose
    to so invest his time and resources. I recognize that you indicated that in your article
    you were putting aside the question of incentives,but my question to you is:
    can requiring people to pay royalties for economically exploiting someone else’s
    inventions or books be justified, even without any reliance on property rights?

  4. And there we have it, there is such a thing as intellectual property: You own the ideas you create, and once fixed in a physical medium they become your intellectual property, that you are able to keep to yourself or transfer to another. Moreover, the individual has a natural exclusive right to their writings or designs.

    This much was recognised as self-evident by the framers of the US constitution.

    Where things became corrupted by commerce was in the granting of reproduction monopolies in the form of copyright and patent. These derogate the individual’s liberty in favour of the mass producer, whether of literary copies or mechanisms.

    Abolish the monopolies, but don’t get carried away. Intellectual property remains natural and ethical.

  5. “can requiring people to pay royalties for economically exploiting someone else’s
    inventions or books be justified, even without any reliance on property rights?”

    How can it be justified if there is no property in ideas? Who does the requiring and what’s the penalty for not paying? There may be contractual ways to capture some of the benefits bestowed by IP laws, but I don’t think they get you very far. Regardless, this is a puzzle for entrepreneurs to solve in the free market, not the state. There are profits awaiting those who solve it.

    Society is full of neighborhood effects. That’s part of the essence of society.

  6. Hi Sheldon,

    I almost always agree with you, but not on this. Ideas are the product of a man\\\’s mind, and are his property, just as much as any physical property he creates with his hands and mind combined, or acquires in the market place morally. Ideas are what make the modern world function. Some are exceptionally valuable and some individual, or group of individuals, conceived them; they are not free gifts of nature. That someone has a right to the material and intellectual proceeds from his creation; they are his property. Otherwise the incentive to create, and benefit all of mankind, is hollow. Beethoven\\\’s Fifth Symphony is forever Beethoven\\\’s intellectual property. So to with the Isaac Newton\\\’s discovery and proof of the Universal Law of Gravitation, which could only be discovered once and on which most of the modern technological world is built. Examples are legion. We seem to get hung up on how to compensate the owner, but that is a job best left to the creative workings of the free market. Because it is difficult does not condone the theft of ideas. But what about the incredibly useful invention that the inventor does not wish to sell, or share? It is the same as with physical property; others needs or wants do not create the right to steal a creator\\\’s property. I note that those who write against the ownership of ideas seem to always do so in books and articles they copyright.

    // Albert W. Peterson

  7. Sheldon,I think you make a very convincing case for why intellectual property
    should not be considered something capable of being affording legal protections
    as a property right.

    Yet, can’t a law that requires the payment to commercial exploiters of someone elses
    invention or book be justified simply on the basis that without such payments
    everyone else would be getting the beneficiary of these ideas without having paid
    anything for their economic exploitation of the idea.(Neighborhood benefit effect)
    Moreover, doesn\’t the promise of royalties from producing new ideas induce people
    to spend their capital and time to write and invent things of value to all of us,
    which in the absence of such expectation of royalties, that person would not choose
    to so invest his time and resources. I recognize that you indicated that in your article
    you were putting aside the question of \"incentives,\" but my question to you is:
    can requiring people to pay royalties for economically exploiting else\’s inventions
    or books be justified, even without reliance on the notion of property rights?

  8. Mr. Peterson, with all due respect, my article addresses mot of your points. You write, “We seem to get hung up on how to compensate the owner, but that is a job best left to the creative workings of the free market.” That is what I am saying. Copyrights and patents are not the product of the free market. The state (king) created them — and not for the purpose of rewarding inventors, authors, and composers. They were favors in return for tribute. That’s why the rewards are called royalties.

    “So to with the Isaac Newton\\\’s discovery and proof of the Universal Law of Gravitation, which could only be discovered once and on which most of the modern technological world is built.”

    Should everyone have to pay a royalty to Newton’s estate whenever he makes use of gravity? That is the logic of your position. (In fact, scientific principles cannot be copyrighted or patented.)

    “But what about the incredibly useful invention that the inventor does not wish to sell, or share?”

    He has a perfect right not to sell or share any thoughts he has. But if he does release a thought, people will have mental copies of it and those mental copies are now theirs.

    “note that those who write against the ownership of ideas seem to always do so in books and articles they copyright.”

    While I have written for and have been paid by organizations that claim copyright in my work, I have never copyrighted anything I have written. This is true for others as well. Some copyright opponents have copyrighted their work only in order to make it freely available. Under the law, if one person forgoes copyright, someone else can acquire it and restrict use of the work. The law makes it necessary to copyright in order to keep work restriction-free.

  9. “And there we have it, there is such a thing as intellectual property: You own the ideas you create, and once fixed in a physical medium they become your intellectual property, that you are able to keep to yourself or transfer to another. Moreover, the individual has a natural exclusive right to their writings or designs.”

    But don’t you have to meet the arguments I made against this? It is not enough simply to repeat the standard assertion.

  10. “Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony is forever Beethoven’s intellectual property”, isn’t quite correct.

    1) Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony was Beethoven’s intellectual property from that moment he set it down on paper until that moment he divested himself of it (and all copies), or he died – corpses have no natural intellectual property rights.

    2) Beethoven had a natural exclusive right to his Fifth Symphony (and any copies) during his possession of it: the period between creation (conferring him ownership) and his voluntary distribution or disclosure. One naturally ceases one’s exclusive right to intellectual property that one transfers into another’s possession.

    Copyright would have granted Beethoven a monopoly over the copying of his score, creation of derivative works, and public performance of his symphony (historians can clarify the details). US lawyers prefer to describe this mercantile privilege as a legal right to exclude others from making copies, etc. (primarily so they can abbreviate it to ‘exclusive right’ in order to conflate it with the natural exclusive right recognised by the US constitution).

    The matter of authorship is a matter of truth not one of property, so one could say “Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony is forever Beethoven’s intellectual work”.

  11. But Sheldon don’t we libertarians recognize that there are situations where it makes sense for freeloaders freeloaders to have to pay for benefits received but not contracted
    for (even contract law has a common law doctrine to consider this. It is the
    doctrine of “unjust enrichment.”

    Here is an idea, set up a federal agency (I can’t believe, as a libertarian, I am
    actually suggesting a new government function and thus a new government agency to
    perform this role), but here is my idea: The federal government would collect data
    on the commercial, economic exploitation of the invention or book by third parties
    with regard to a particular, formally recognized and registered invention or book,
    and based thereon the government would then pay the inventor or writer some
    ongoing royalty like payments for the benefits that the inventor or writer has
    provided to the American commercial public, at large. The test of the value to the
    public would be the dollar value of the commercial activity afforded by leasing
    and sale (exploitation) of this invention by these third parties. Is this much
    different than taxing people for the government making its public highways freely
    available to the public. In effect, one could consider that the invention is being
    conveyed to the public via the government in affect buying the invention and
    then paying the inventor or writer continuing payments based on the commercial
    exploitation of the invention or the book. Yes, we would probably have to impose a
    reporting requirement that any third party exploiter of the invention or the book
    would have to be required by the government to formally report its usage of the
    invention or of the book to the government. What do you you think idea Sheldon?
    My idea both facilitates the open use of all publicly disseminated ideas, but provides
    an incentive mechanism for the inventor or the writer and assuming that the contemplated government
    government royalty like payments to the writer or inventor will be funded from general tax
    revenues (or perhaps from a sales tax on the product that utilizes the invention or the
    the book), the free rider effect will be alleviated–in that users (or potential users) will be
    will be required to pay their fair part).

  12. Sheldon, I think we agree concerning monopoly, but I hold that authors and inventors do indeed have a natural exclusive right to their writings and designs. That means that such a right should be secured, that theft of such intellectual property deserves as much recognition, deterrent and remedy as theft of material property.

    How else can one exchange one’s labour if the state no longer recognises it, or instead recognises a sheet of paper with a child’s scribbled pencil marks as equivalent to a sheet of paper with painstakingly produced words?

    If I write a book then that’s my intellectual property, and I have a natural ability and right to protect it from theft. I had been hoping we had created and empowered a government to recognise and secure my exclusive right to my writing – not to enact an invidious monopoly for the benefit of book printers, that perversely suspends my liberty to share or build upon the published work of other authors.

    Abolishing the monopoly restores my liberty to stand upon the shoulders of my predecessors.

    Ceasing to recognise intellectual property prevents me exchanging my intellectual work.

    So, this is why I’m against monopoly, but for IP.

  13. Sheldon:

    “He has a perfect right not to sell or share any thoughts he has. But if he does release a thought, people will have mental copies of it and those mental copies are now theirs.”

    Well said. As Wendy McElroy notes in Intellectual Property: Copyright and Patent in Liberty, “Perhaps the essence of [Benjamin] Tucker’s approach to intellectual property was best expressed when he exclaimed: “You want your invention to yourself? Then keep it to yourself.”

    Mr. Peterson writes:

    “note that those who write against the ownership of ideas seem to always do so in books and articles they copyright.”

    This is a bizarre criticism. The fact that people copyright books does not show that copyright is valid, or that their arguments against copyright are invalid. Moreover, people do NOT copyright their own material. As I explained in Copyright is very sticky!, “copyright is a noun, not a verb–that you don’t “copyright” something–you have a copyright in your original works of authorship as soon as you write them, automatically, courtesy of federal law. No copyright notice is required. No copyright registration is required. You have the right, whether you like it or not.”

  14. Sheldon, I would much like to hear your reaction to my earlier proposal as
    well as anyone elses reaction on this
    blog, as well. I want to add to my previous email–that I would give the inventor or
    the writer the option of either obtaining a one time, up front lump sum payment
    from the government based on upon the Government’s assessment of the ascertainable
    value of his invention or of his book or he could choose continuing royalty
    payments, but those payments would be reduced by the government’s cost of
    raising the extra revenue needed in order
    to pay such royalty type payments. I guess if it his were done as a sale tax, then it
    should be imposed with regard to the additional value added to the product from this
    invention.

    My guess is that the additional profits to made by all exploiters of these inventions would
    probably pay for the royalty like payment, if this were done with income tax revenues.

  15. Steve, a lump sum from the government? You mean the taxpayers. How can you justify this?

    Why are royalties due if intellectual property is a fiction?

  16. Stephan, your point about copyright the noun versus the verb is much appreciated. It had occurred to me.

  17. “don’t we libertarians recognize that there are situations where it makes sense for freeloaders freeloaders to have to pay for benefits received but not contracted
    for (even contract law has a common law doctrine to consider this. It is the
    doctrine of ‘unjust enrichment.’”

    Have to pay? Give me a specific example. As a general proposition, if you benefit from a positive externality, you don’t owe money to anyone. If you want to make a donation, go ahead. Society is by nature a whole lot of positive externalities.

    “Here is an idea, set up a federal agency….”

    If IP is a fiction, why would we need a federal agency? The government would pay inventors? Taxpayers, you mean. On what grounds do you force the taxpayers to cough up the money?

    Why we looking for solutions to a nonproblem?

  18. In a previous comment I erroneously stated that if an author does not claim the copyright in a work, someone else an. I have since learned from Stephan Kinsella that this is not true, and I want to correct the error. For details see Stephan’s “Copyright Is Very Sticky!” The link is above.

  19. Well put.

    Why manufacture scarcity where none need exist? Doesn’t that just place unnecessary burdens to human progress? Isn’t physical scarcity enough of a burden on mankind?

  20. Let’s assume there is no copyright.

    Q. How does someone get paid for writing a book?
    A. The same way an as an architect for designing a building, a carpenter for building a house, that is, he is paid for his labor/time.

    Q. But a book is much more valuable, as it can be duplicated an unlimited number of times.
    A. Then the author had better charge accordingly.

    Q. Why would a publisher pay a lot for a book when another could come along and sell copies without having to pay the author?
    A. OK, so publishers wouldn’t pay authors to write books.

    Q. So how do books get written?
    A. By paying authors to write them. If new books are valuable, then readers should raise money to commission books.

    Without copyright, no resources are wasted on policing what things people copy, and intellectual works are allowed their full natural abundance. Also, the free market can then optimize production of the works, rather than the copyright holder having a monopoly on production.

  21. Books will be published, music played, movies filmed, and software written in the absence of intellectual property laws. There’s little evidence to suggest that any of those things will suffer, either. Unless, of course, you consider the height of civilization to be listening to Kelly Clarkson belt out tunes on Windows Media Player.

    Information cannot be “owned” and cannot be “stolen”. For those of you invoking the framers of the constitution (not sure why they’re relevant…), even they acknowledged this. It was addressed quite separate from the notion of property rights, and even framed in utilitarian terms.

  22. Shay clearly understands the sense of copyright abolition, and how the exchange of intellectual work is subsequently as natural as the exchange of material work. Consequently, intellectual property becomes as natural as material property.

    MarkZ, I appreciate intellectual property has got a bad name because people have pretended that it grants supernatural control over a pattern wherever it manifests in the universe. However, that is the overreach of monopoly, not property. Property is about the ownership of a specific instance of a basket, a mechanism, a design, or a book. It is NOT about owning all likenesses even in others’ possession. So one can steal intellectual property through burglary (removing a work or copy without permission). If I create or purchase an intellectual work it is my intellectual property, and should be protected as such (from theft) just as much as a material work of mine.

    Without the words in books being recognised as intellectual property, Shay’s examples become impossible. You don’t need to cease the recognition of intellectual property in order to abolish monopolies over it – just abolish the monopolies.

  23. @Crosbie Fitch:

    Your argument would be far more convincing if you abstain from using words like “theft” or “burglary” to refer to copyright infringement (I admit I’m not a native speaker but we have the same problem here in Russia with pro-copyright groups resorting to criminal rethoric to defend their case).
    IP rights are property-LIKE rights, and no matter how closely they are modelled AFTER the classical property rights, the analogy will never be complete (is copying really tantamount to theft, or is that “trespass”, or what?)
    That said, there is no question that information is valuable per se and that an idea can be an object of exchange. What is debated is whether the framework of “property-like” rights is doing the right job here. Could it be that distribution and protection of ideas are, indeed, two conflicting goals? If yes, would the first goal be better served by a contractual framework of NDAs, and the second one, by letting the market devise the most efficient and profitable system for distribution of fresh ideas?

  24. Im going to attempt this arguement from the perspective of an artist, as I am one, and see it resembles logic:

    The heart of the matter is \"mine versus yours\". What is mine and what is yours?

    If I create a painting, the physical product is indeed my own. If I used a copyrighted photograph as inspiration for the painting am I now infringing on someone else\’s property? I don\’t believe so. For my painting, even if realistic in nature, is unique in medium. I have not altered the original photograph. Nor have I interfered with the distribution, likewise the profits, of the original photograph in any way. The photographer is free to take photos of whatever he/she chooses, as I am free to create paintings of whatever I choose as well. The painting is mine, the photograph is yours. The idea? The idea is uniquely both. The phototgrapher had the idea to capture the subject in a still shot, and I had the idea to capture the same subject in paint.

    I remember in school we used to get the annual lecture about plagarism. The point driven home was not that it was wrong to use another\’s idea, but it was wrong to use another\’s idea and not give them credit…i.e. acknowledge that the idea wasn\’t originally our own.

    Ideas are indeed possessions, but I must agree with previous authors that ideas are up for grabs as soon as you release them outside of your self. In an ideal society, we wouldn\’t be ashamed to give credit where credit is due, wheather the credit belongs to my \’self\’ or to your \’self\’. But if we are scared to release our ideas into a broader pool of minds, it is likely we are stifling the idea\’s improvement. (I\’m not suggesting that the collective idea is more valuable than the individual idea.) And is not improvement similar if not equatable to progress?

  25. Before we can discuss the validity of intellectual property we need to address the issues of arbitrary law, uniform law, and unknowable/unpredictable law generally.

    Western society is full of arbitrary law created to make enforcement easy and predictable. The form and details of the law changes with time – often a clue that it has arbitrary components. Such law has a consequentialist foundation. Should we argue to abandon all consequentialist law if we are going to abandon IP?

    There are serious issues of uniform law in Western society. Nearly every legal boundary crossed involves a different set of law – village, county, state, and national. There are literally tens of thousands or more sets of laws once you move from location to location. What happens if IP is abandoned at a national level only to be recreated in ten thousand forms more locally? When consequentialist law with serious ramifications is at stake law makers will not sit idle.

    Law can be arbitrary but known, uniform locally, and still remain unpredictable in its application or outcome.. Laws need to have enforcers who understand the law and those who fairly judge the law once an enforcement action is being taken. Can anyone seriously argue that the law as currently practiced is knowable and predictable as we move place to place and from individual to enforcer to judgment? If we abandon consequentialist law we add tremendous pressure to work around the law and increase the power of the arbitrary during the enforcement and judgment stages.

    There are serious arguments to be made against IP but we need to keep in mind where it all leads and what the real foundations being discussed are. The best outcome at the end of this path might be some form of anarcho-capitalism. Once you abandon consequentialist law there are many possible outcomes in the evolution of a society, which cannot be predicted in advance. Rather than intellectual nirvana I suspect it is more likely that Western societies abandoning IP will see severe consequentialist results – flight of capital, brain drain, and eventually dominations by external military powers pushing them to one form or another of authoritarian collectivism [pick your type].

  26. Shay, good post, very constructive. Why are people locked into business models spawned by artificial, state-created property and scarcity? Don’t forget entrepreneurship in a truly freed market! (I love RadGeek’s term!)

    Great conversation, folks. Let’s keep it going!

    Sheldon

  27. Crosbie Fitch, my argument was actually that intellectual works should not be treated any differently than any other physical object; you pay someone for his labor or for the physical thing he gives you, and then you’re free to do (almost) whatever you want with it. If you make a million copies of a book you paid an author to write, you are taking nothing from him, because you already paid him for it (and presumably he took into account that it would be quite valuable, and thus charged you appropriately). We don’t need to treat the book or music author any differently than a plumber or carpenter; we simply pay him for his labor or for the finished physical result of it. I can barely imagine the mayhem that will come once we can copy any physical object as easily and cheaply as we can currently copy computer data, sound, and images…

  28. Sheldon wrote:

    “Why are people locked into business models spawned by artificial, state-created property and scarcity? Don’t forget entrepreneurship in a truly freed market!”

    A great deal of the conversation needs to revolve around what has worked in the way of intellectual property and what has not worked. If a move from IP is to take place there must be real world alternatives which don’t involve going back to hickory leaves for toilet paper and everyone raising their own food and defending their own home against any wanna be attacker. It is not obvious that alternative business models will promote a Western modern civilization. A truly free market sounds good – the details of what that means are far from clear.

    Dennis May

  29. Crosbie,
    It’s interesting that you used the phrase “protected (from theft).” What’s unique about intellectual property as an analog to real property is that it doesn’t NEED protection. If someone “steals” your intellectual work, whatever that may be, yours is still left completely intact.

    Unlike tangible property, the value in intellectual property is almost always the monopolistic marketeering that usually accompanies it. Your intellectual work is not degraded in utility after someone “steals” it, although its market may be. So, I think it’s a mistake even for IP proponents to try to draw too many similarities to tangible property. Intellectual property is not property.

  30. Shay, I agree that intellectual work should be treated the same as material work, but that at least requires that the intellectual work is recognised as able to constitute property as much as the material work. Why should material works be recognised as able to constitute property and yet intellectual works not?

    We’re all agreed that the monopoly is iniquitous and to be abolished, but why are people so adamant to throw the baby out with the bathwater and refuse to recognise intellectual property at all? That strikes me as petulance, an impatience to think a little more deeply, a primitive or luddite notion that the universe would be so much simpler if it only consisted of matter and not also information.

    We are now in the information age and intellectual work plays a very large part in our cultural and scientific affairs. So I believe we have to recognise that intellectual work can constitute property. What the Internet demonstrates is not that there is no such thing as intellectual property, but that a monopoly is unnatural and ineffective.

    I strongly doubt that the author, inventor, musician, programmer, or any other artist can be persuaded that they do not own the fruit of their mental labours, that it may be appropriated from them without consequence, because there is no such thing as IP. They may tolerate the loss of monopoly, but they won’t tolerate the inability to exchange their intellectual work.

    I am dismayed that there is this polarisation between those who believe a monopoly over intellectual work can be maintained and those who believe that intellectual work shouldn’t even be recognised as property. There seems to be just a tiny few in the middle such as I, who would recognise IP, but who would abolish the monopoly. Why is there such extremism? Between maximalism and nihilism? Is there no-one else who will be satisfied simply with the abolition of copyright and patent? Why must people also destroy IP? Why would people also abrogate the author’s exclusive right to their writings, and the inventor’s exclusive right to their designs?

  31. “If a move from IP is to take place there must be real world alternatives which don’t involve going back to hickory leaves for toilet paper and everyone raising their own food and defending their own home against any wanna be attacker.”

    You misunderstand what entrepreneurship is. It emerges as profit-seekers discover solutions in the midst of problematic situations. Necessity is the mother of invention. You don’t come up with the solutions theoretical first, then change the system. Why would we regress as you suggest?

  32. "why are people so adamant to throw the baby out with the bathwater and refuse to recognise intellectual property at all?"

    Mr. Fitch, my article answers this question. Why don’t you rebut my arguments instead of pretending that there are no arguments against your position?

    I don’t get your point. If you abolish monopoly, as you suggest, you have abolished IP, i.e., patents and copyright. How can you scuttle copyright and patent but save IP? That is nonsense.

    IP = copyright/patent = monopoly.

  33. So, I can legitimately take Stephen King’s books or those of any bestselling writer, put my name on them, and offer them for sale. I can take any or all of the posts above, rearrange them, claim them as my own, and post them on my Web site without acknowledgment of who wrote the original posts. I can take Sheldon’s books, scan them into my computer, and offer physical copies of them for sale under my name.

    Not all “ideas” are the same. A fundamental idea — say, special relativity — is not the same as the _particular_ manner in which I explain that idea.

    One has no ownership right to an idea, i.e., to a discovery; only to an invention, the creation of X that did not exist in nature on its own before the person created it. One has ownership to a particular formulation that has a material/physical manifestation. (E.g., no one can own “quantum physics,” but a writer has ownership of his particularized and physical presentation of that idea.) We are not ghosts. We exist in a physical world.

    Without the input of a person’s mind, _no_ property of any kind would exist. The intellectual component involved in making “oil” into a “value” is no different in kind that the intellectual component of an author in making 100,000 words a “value” by placing them in a particularized order and publishing a book (electronic or physical) that contains his individualized presentation.

    A fundamental “right” is primarily about the ability to choose how to _use_ a particular X and less about the X itself.

    As Rand said, intellectual property declares that what is essential to production of values is _thought_, an idea, and not merely the physical effort required to produce it. The latter would endorse the “labor theory of value,” a theory incompatible with freedom.

    As for how long a copyright or patent should be granted, that is a matter for debate. But the for the life of the creator and, perhaps, X years after his death seems a reasonable place to start.

  34. Maybe you can\’t own an idea, but if you write the idea out and describe it and its uses, the words you use to do this, their order and pattern, are yours. It\’s right that laws exist to punish anybody who would copy those words and claim them as his own. \"The workman is worthy of his hire.\" You can\’t own the idea: \"rabbit,\" but if you create a sculpture of a rabbit, the figure is your property. You can\’t own the idea \"slavery is bad,\" but you also can\’t copy \"Uncle Tom\’s Cabin\" and claim that you are the author. It takes me around 20 years to complete a novel. Do you think anybody with a copy machine should be allowed to publish one of my novels?

    I think this debate is mostly between people who expend great effort to create art or literature and those who want a fee ride. I hope you anti-IP creeps fail, since I’m too old to spend the rest of my life killing plagiarists.

  35. MarkZ, if you ever get anywhere near the need to exchange your intellectual work for money, you’ll soon recognise how fatuous it is to suggest that it doesn’t need recognising as property because if someone steals one copy you might still have another copy.

    Fred spends years producing an intellectual work. Bill says “Hey, I’d pay big bucks for your work Fred, but thanks to IP nihilists I can simply steal a copy and pay you nothing. According to the nihilists this is no problem for you because you still have a copy. Wow. We’re both happy. Isn’t the lack of recognition of IP great?”

    Note that Fred isn’t asking the state to grant him a monopoly over his work he just wants the state to recognise and protect it as his property.

    Why is everyone so dead set on begrudging Fred the recognition of his work as his property?

    I can quite understand that it’s preposterous and illiberal to grant Fred a monopoly, but why is recognising his work as his intellectual property so difficult?

    1) “Nothing is more strictly a man’s own than the fruit of his study”
    2) “There isn’t property more peculiarly a man’s own than that which is produced by the labor of his mind.”

  36. Sheldon, you posit: “IP = copyright/patent = monopoly.”

    Not quite.

    Copyright and patent are known as ‘intellectual property rights’, however they do not define intellectual property. They are legal rights (aka privileges) granted to the creators of intellectual works (and consequently transferable, unlike natural rights). These privileges help the author/inventor secure their natural exclusive right to their writings/designs by providing them with a monopoly, sanctioned on the basis its high commercial value serves as a publication incentive.

    I’d suggest that the exclusive right should have been secured by the state (as per the US constitution) instead of via the grant of a monopoly that is up to the holder to enforce. The monopoly was excessive, unnecessary, and unconstitutional.

    Anyway, let’s use a book as an example. A book is intellectual property because it is an intellectual work fixed in a physical medium. It enjoys copyright (an intellectual property ‘right’) because it is an original work (and still within the term of copyright’s protection). Copyright doesn’t make the book intellectual property. It helps secure the author’s work, the book, as their intellectual property, and also grants them a reproduction monopoly over it.

    So, I’m trying to argue (evidently rather poorly), that whilst the monopoly provided by copyright should be abolished, the book should still be recognised as the intellectual property of its possessor (author or purchaser), i.e. not just the material, but the words too.

    We all understand what it means to own a wicker basket as property and to have a monopoly on the production of wicker baskets using the same design. Why is it so difficult to understand what it means to own a novel as property and to have a monopoly on the production of novels using the same words? Or rather, why do we readily recognise that getting rid of monopolies in baskets doesn’t mean ceasing to recognise that baskets constitute property? That’s all I’m proposing for intellectual works. That we simply get rid of the monopolies governing novels, yet still recognise that a novel constitutes property. Nearly everyone against the monopolies of copyright and patent seems to be also against the idea that writings and designs can constitute property. That seems a rather lazy abnegation.

  37. I wrote:

    “If a move from IP is to take place there must be real world alternatives which don’t involve going back to hickory leaves for toilet paper and everyone raising their own food and defending their own home against any wanna be attacker.”

    Sheldon wrote:

    \"You misunderstand what entrepreneurship is. It emerges as profit-seekers discover solutions in the midst of problematic situations. Necessity is the mother of invention. You don’t come up with the solutions theoretical first, then change the system. Why would we regress as you suggest?\"

    There are numerous historical examples of regression, the loss of intellectual development, and the loss of invention and machinery expressing this development. Every year we discover more and more intellectual history where the Greeks, Romans, and other civilizations had knowledge lost to the world for thousands of years. The phrase \"re-inventing the wheel\" is an acknowledgement of a common historical and everyday truth. If the West collapses economically there will be huge losses of intellectual capital – some of which may never be recovered. In one generation regression could be common to large portions of the populace. There are places in the world today where there is no IP – not a place for inventors needing capital to realize their dreams. These places also tend to have no freedom to speak of. A free modern society without IP would be an economic experiment. I suspect such an experiment would require a free rider status to last any length of time in the present world.

    IP was created in part to help break the cycle of loss when individuals cannot profit from their efforts [hiding their inventions from the public - often it is lost when they die – or curtailing their development since there is no road to profit]. Another problem from old Europe were guilds that generated a kind of secret police to enforce IP. There is no argument that IP poses serious issues – as does all arbitrary and consequentialist law.

    As an inventor myself I have ideas I have sat on for decades because there is no clear path to profit or no obvious means of funding. I expect most will be lost when I die. I have given away a few inventions and seen others profit from my work. I have given away other inventions yet to materialize profit for anyone. I have sat on inventions later independently development by others – some profited from them – some did not. I have had physical embodiments of inventions stolen. I have had inventions of others under my care stolen. I am also aware of vast networks of foreign spies devoted to gathering technological IP for economic and military reasons. I am aware of inventions not known publicly. I know many companies use trade secrets because of their lack of satisfaction with IP law. I am aware of vast amounts of IP lost or destroyed through simple neglect. I had one project of mine entirely destroyed through simple bureaucratic neglect [again it will be lost when I die].

    There is no one size fits all in IP or any such arbitrary arrangement inadequately dealing with the “black swan” phenomenon. Profit seekers seldom see profit in the existing system. I would have to understand the economics of a better system before supporting it. I do not see a sensible economic model on the table at present. If there is such an economic model without IP I would like a link or book to read about it.

    Dennis May

  38. I think without creation, duplication cannot occur, even if it is technically easy. You need something primordial, original, which is owned by the author.

    Murray Rothbard concludes \"copyright is a logical device of property right on the free market\"(\"Patents and Copyrights\", <i>Man, Economy, and State.</i> Auburn: The Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2001, p. 654). How can you defeat Rothbard\’s logic?

    Even in case copyrights are invalidated, one\’s <i>works</i> can be protected contractually. But using copyright with fair use exceptions should be much better and more efficient. . . .

    Just my questions,

  39. Crosbie Fitch said, “Why should material works be recognised as able to constitute property and yet intellectual works not?”

    Even raw material that hasn’t been crafted into anything can be property. The scarcity of material is why we need the concept of property at all (observe how we don’t talk of who owns the air). If I have some material and you take it, now I can’t make use of it anymore. Intellectual “material” is not finite; if you share your idea, you don’t lose it. An idea cannot be stolen, so holders need no protection from theft.

    Another way to put this is that theft of property will be noticed by the owner when he witnesses a thief breaking in, or later finds the item missing. To determine that “theft” of intellectual “property” has occurred requires the “owner” to potentially roam the world looking for unauthorized copies or uses, or to coerce governments (taxpayers) to pay police to do this.

    Note that refusing to support the idea of intellectual property doesn’t mean that intellectual labor is unimportant; it is quite important these days and can be paid for like any labor is paid for.

    Also please avoid muddying the discussion with examples of modifying a work to falsely claim that you wrote it; that’s a different issue and would arise even if there were no copyright. The issue here would involve you simply making (near) exact copies of the work and distributing them, perhaps without charging anything.

  40. Shay, labour cannot be exchanged if the resulting material or intellectual work cannot be recognised as the property first of its producer, and second as the property of the recipient who has exchanged money in return.

    I give burglary as an example of its theft. And as with material theft, yes there has to be evidence that it was removed from someone’s private possession without their permission.

    Without monopoly a recipient is free to reproduce the work to their heart’s content – or to build upon it. But at least it remains their property, and their natural right to exclude others from it should remain secured.

    As to muddying the discussion with misattribution, I think the only time I touched on this issue was when I gave my Beethoven example, suggesting the difference between ownership of a work and authorship of it. In the English language the possessive can indicate both, and so it needs disambiguating. That book is mine: that book is my work vs that book is my property vs I have a monopoly on the reproduction of that book.

  41. Shay wrote:

    \"Intellectual “material” is not finite; if you share your idea, you don’t lose it. An idea cannot be stolen, so holders need no protection from theft.\"

    If a company invests tens of millions of dollars developing an industrial process generation after generation they should profit from the risk of capital and human effort they have expended. With no IP they are placed in a riskier financial position but could in theory rely on trade secrets. Were Shay\’s idea that an idea cannot be stolen true – there would be no need for trade secrets either. With no IP – trade secrets would become more common requiring an extreme increase in industrial security and private police actions. Employees would have to pass background checks to work in common industrial environments, some high investment processes might require a loss of freedom by employees in order to contain the spread of ideas – so they are not stolen.

    There are consequences in not protecting IP – either high investment new processes go away or those investing will require extreme protective measures be put in place – creating a miniature police state in the process. In the early history of the industrial revolution assassinations to protect IP were common. Imprisonment or hangings by a state protecting its financial interests were more common. Guilds employed private force to protect their interests. When it comes to military IP even the US has hung people.

    The founders of the economic experiment that is the US Constitution knew the history of IP in Europe – find a way to reward the creative while fostering open disclosure or live with assassins, industrial spying gone wild, big brother watching employees, private police actions, and regular hangings of those trying to make a quick buck selling out their employers.

    Dennis May

  42. Crosbie, ideas simply cannot be stolen; they can be copied, perhaps without consent of who knew of the idea earlier. The defining aspect of theft is that the thing changes owners, that the original owner can no longer use the thing stolen. When you talk of theft of IP, what exactly do you mean?

    Dennis, you say that a company who invests lots of money in a process would be at a loss if another company copied the process, thus eliminating their competitive advantage; yes, the first company would, and thus shouldn’t invest in things whose value is based on their secrecy. Why should this particular risky approach get government funding to reduce its risk? If I decide to skydive and want full insurance coverage should I be injured, do I have a right to for government funding of the insurance, rather than paying for it myself? You say that things would be worse without IP, but why wouldn’t the high cost of keeping things secret be a strong incentive for someone to find a lower-cost/risk means of investing in idea production?

  43. Shay, by theft I mean removal of material and/or intellectual property (work fixed in physical medium) from an individual’s private domain without their permission. Whether the thief is productive in the process of such removal is irrelevant, e.g. leaving behind one or more copies.

  44. Removal of a physical object is theft, regardless of whether it’s a lump of coal or a book or DVD. I don’t think anybody here is calling for the exclusion of books and DVDs from those physical possessions protected by the state.

  45. Shay wrote:

    Dennis, you say that a company who invests lots of money in a process would be at a loss if another company copied the process, thus eliminating their competitive advantage; yes, the first company would, and thus shouldn’t invest in things whose value is based on their secrecy. Why should this particular risky approach get government funding to reduce its risk? [...] You say that things would be worse without IP, but why wouldn’t the high cost of keeping things secret be a strong incentive for someone to find a lower-cost/risk means of investing in idea production?

    I guess no new industry is an option [I cannot take seriously the concept that people need to design new industry so that if IP is stolen they have no loss]. No IP will simply cause a flight of capital and brain drain – most likely reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator – authoritarian collectism. There is no economic model for modern Western civilization without IP. I would not invest money in innovative industry without IP – whether publicly or privately enforceable.

    Dennis May

  46. Shay, the point is that the intellectual property must be recognised as removed without permission as well as the material property, otherwise only a piece of paper is recognised as stolen, not also the words upon it.

    What causes you so much pain to recognise intellectual property, if we can agree that a monopoly over it is unnatural, unethical, uneconomic, and unenforceable?

    An author wants to sell their work, they don’t need a monopoly. The monopoly was an abomination craved and petitioned by the printer, not the author.

  47. Property is a monopoly. If you accept the idea of intellectual property, you can only end up with a system such as the one we have today. The current system is merely a more thorough attempt to see to it that “intellectual property” is respected. And get this, if “intellectual property” was real, then we couldn’t enforce it too thoroughly. There can be no extremism in the enforcement of natural rights. Since you claim otherwise, it seems obvious that “intellectual property” is an invention.

  48. Crosbie, I think I’m starting to make sense of what you’re saying. A better example might be someone stealing a hard drive that has a company’s only copy of vital data, versus the same situation but with the company having a backup (in both cases, the data is encrypted so that the thief can’t make use of the data, just that the company is deprived of using it). Is that what you’re referring to? If so, then this is virtually the same as someone coming in and simply reformatting the hard drive, without taking anything; data vital to the company’s operation is lost, worth much more than the hard drive. As far as I know, all of these acts are illegal, and those involving destruction/theft of the company’s only copy of the data would carry a greater penalty. A similar situation would be a thief taking a stack of blank paper from an author’s house versus taking a stack of paper with the only copy of his book (no computer file); I can’t imagine how a judge wouldn’t assign more value to the print of the book than to a stack of blank paper. I also don’t think any of these involve IP laws, as they don’t involve any infringement. In other words, we don’t need IP laws to deal with these situations.

  49. To further enrich the discussion we should consider automated IP generation as well as automated tangible property generation.

    There exists software that takes an expert systems understanding of music and generates new songs in a continual non-repeating manner.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090601085928.htm

    I see no reason why another program could not automatically fill out and send in the copyright paperwork and fees.

    Similar expert and neural network learning systems have been proposed or exist for writing scientific papers, doing engineering design work, and other work that could qualify for IP.

    In the area of tangible property science fiction is moving closer to engineering fact concerning automated systems able to construct themselves as well as performing general manufacturing. In the not too distant future software, hardware, and evolutionary algorithms may combine such that you can turn loose and automated system and later reap substantial tangible property benefits without further input. Eventually one could picture sending a probe to a dead moon then years later end up with property and infrastructure worth trillions of dollars. When IP and hardware interact and effectively breed new hardware and IP things become interesting.

    Dennis May

  50. Putting your name on something someone else has written is fraud against your customers, not a violation of intellectual “property.” Noncoercive social action (exposure, boycott, ridicule, etc.) is more than up to the task of “retaliating” for such uncouth behavior.

  51. I\’ve been seeing Mr. Fitch\’s comments like this for a while now on the Against Monopoly blog. I have a good understanding of IP law, and of the policy debates about it, both pro- and con, utilitarian and principled.

    And I still have no idea what he is trying to say, when he says he\’s for abolishing \"the IP monopoly\" but still in favor of IP.

  52. Littlehorn writes,
    “Property is a monopoly. If you accept the idea of intellectual property, you can only end up with a system such as the one we have today. The current system is merely a more thorough attempt to see to it that “intellectual property” is respected. And get this, if “intellectual property” was real, then we couldn’t enforce it too thoroughly. There can be no extremism in the enforcement of natural rights. Since you claim otherwise, it seems obvious that “intellectual property” is an invention.”

    Exactly, it is an invention. Earlier libertarians called it “artificial property” as opposed to “natural property.” My article addressed the all-property-is-monopoly point through a quotation by Kevin Carson. It doesn’t get you to IP. I refer you to the quotation.

  53. Mr Richman,
    No shilly-shallying: do reply with “I fully approve/disapprove of the scenario described, which is in accord with my proposed abolition of existing intellectual property rights.” The scenario:
    The moment J.K. Rowling publishes her next new novel, I have my presses ready, and I immediately scan it, print a million copies — perserving her name as author — and rush them to all the stores, whereupon I become an overnight millionaire, sending not one penny to Miss Rowling herself.

  54. If no one \"owns\" X — if X is not and cannot be property — then I can do anything I want to with X. If person A does not own ideas in any form whatsoever and has no rights involved with X, then no violation of A\’s rights are possible in re: to X. Fraud is a violation of rights, i.e., B claiming that he own\’s A\’s property when he does not. But if A does not and cannot possibly claim ownership in any way in X, then it is impossible for B to violate A\’s nonexistent rights in regard to X. Nor does he commit \"fraud\" by placing his name on the ideas that A \"does not own\" and selling physical copies of what A wrote to person C. If one cannot claim _any_ form of ownership in what one has done with ideas, then no one else can commit fraud against that someone who is involved with those ideas he cannot own. If intellectual property is impossible, then a person who offers non-ownable ideas for sale and places his own name on those non-ownable ideas is not committing fraud against anyone.

    (Not does an appeal to a writer\’s \"reputation\" solve this conundrum. A reputation is an idea, not a physical object. According to the above argument, a reputation is no more ownable or subject to fraud than any other idea. Hence, own has no \"ownership\" in one\’s reputation nor recourse to what other\’s do to what one does not own.)

    It is a self-contradiction to claim that intellectual property rights are nonexistent and simultaneously claim that anyone can commit fraud against a user of ideas. If IP rights do not exist, then no fraud is possible against either the manipulator of non-ownable ideas nor against customers who are merely purchasing a copy of ideas that are non-ownable.

    Claiming that ideas are not property in any case at all is as self-contradictory as claiming that anarchy is logically or philosophically or morally self-consistent.

  55. Crosbie, I don’t think it’s fair for you to assume that I would change my view if I were in a position to profit from IP. Not everybody is that self-serving.

    I hold the stance I do because I recognize that information cannot be owned. And I think even you recognize this. Your defense of IP law is almost completely utilitarian — and, what’s more, based on unfounded predictions. There are lots of reasons to “create” information (whether in the form of music, film, software, written works, etc), even if you don’t stand to profit from it. In fact, experts in each of those genres would probably agree that the best work often comes from when there’s a goal aside from the almighty dollar.

    I won’t comment on the examples that you’ve produced where the real violation is fraud. They’re not relevant because it’s not IP infringement.

  56. Russ wrote: “Fraud is a violation of rights, i.e., B claiming that he own\’s A\’s property when he does not. But if A does not and cannot possibly claim ownership in any way in X, then it is impossible for B to violate A\’s nonexistent rights in regard to X. Nor does he commit \”fraud\” by placing his name on the ideas that A \”does not own\” and selling physical copies of what A wrote to person C. If one cannot claim _any_ form of ownership in what one has done with ideas, then no one else can commit fraud against that someone who is involved with those ideas he cannot own. If intellectual property is impossible, then a person who offers non-ownable ideas for sale and places his own name on those non-ownable ideas is not committing fraud against anyone.”

    Russ, putting your name on something that is not your own is not, in and of itself, a violation of property rights. The violation occurs when you SELL your item by MISREPRESENTING it. I can’t paste a Rolls Royce emblem on a Pontiac and try to sell it as a Rolls Royce. I can, however, paste the Rolls Royce emblem on a Pontiac and try to sell it as a Pontiac with a Rolls Royce emblem on it.

    You don’t need the concept of “intellectual property” in order to recognize that fraud is a violation of property rights.

  57. Gentlemen,
    I know that none of you would dance around a question forthrightly put. As I see it, the following are those who would say to the post of 15 June 2009 at 11:04 am that \’I fully APPROVE of the scenario described, which is in accord with my proposed abolition of existing intellectual property rights.\’ Do correct me if I am wrong, but in any case do supply a manly answer.
    Crosbie Fitch
    David Johnson
    Jordan
    littlehorn
    MarkZ
    Shari
    Shay
    Sheldon Richman
    Stephan Kinsella
    Miss Rowling, as well as her heirs and assigns, will be dismayed by your approval of my entry into the millionaires\’ club on the back of her writing ability.

  58. It seems this is an argument comparable to that concerning what a wiring colour code should be between the blind, the colour-blind, and the sighted. Each group is astonished at each others’ position, and no amount of example or reasoning is sufficiently persuasive.

    I have just blogged a quick summary of what I perceive to be the three positions on IP: IP Triumvirate.

    There are three theories as to how intellectual work should be recognised as property (or not):

    1 Privileged IP – extended by unnatural monopoly
    2 No IP – material property only
    3 Natural IP – no unnatural monopoly

    Privileged IP is the predominant and received thesis. Moreover, to the most extreme of IP maximalists, the privileges of copyright and patent are seen as actually deficient, that the reproduction monopolies should be perpetual, and are otherwise dilutions, albeit tolerable if in the public good.

    No IP is the predominant counter-thesis, that there is no such thing as intellectual property, that the only thing that can be the subject of property is matter, not information. Thus if a poem written on a sheet of paper is stolen (from someone’s private possession), only the theft of paper and ink is recognised, and if a copy of the words is stolen, no theft is recognised to have occurred at all.

    Natural IP is the recognition of intellectual work as property from a natural rights perspective. It is offensive/incomprehensible to advocates of both the predominant thesis and counter-thesis, as while on the one hand it holds that the monopolies of copyright and patent are unnatural and derogate from the individual’s liberty, on the other hand it recognises that intellectual property is natural, that individuals have a natural exclusive right to their intellectual work. Thus with natural IP, poems can be stolen (theft of IP recognised with/without any material), though no monopoly over the poem is granted, e.g. purchasers of poems are free to make and sell copies or derivatives.

  59. Terry, natural rights cannot be abolished, they are derogated, abrogated, or annulled by privileges (aka legal rights). Consequently, it is those privileges of copyright and patent (that should never have been enacted) that should be abolished. Intellectual property without such privilege remains natural, so I wouldn’t wish to see abolition of laws that protected the natural rights of its possessors.

    Therefore, whilst I would see nothing wrong with a free market in the printing of copies of a published work (without compulsory royalty, license, taxation, etc.), I couldn’t agree with the precise wording of your proposition. Incidentally, I strongly doubt you would become quite as wealthy as you indicate if there was a free market in the production of copies.

  60. Terry,
    I’m not really sure what you’re looking for. Is that the consequence of eliminating IP? It might be. Although I think you’d have a harder time than you think becoming a millionaire with that scheme. Yes, you could sell her book at a discounted rate, but what makes you think that there wouldn’t be hundreds (or even thousands) of other entrepeneurs trying to do the same thing? You probably also wouldn’t have access to the book until it was already released. I wonder how many millions she will have already made on day one of the release?

    Am I supposed to feel bad that she wrote a story and wouldn’t be making a billion dollars from the kids who buy it? I’m not really sure I get what you’re trying to say.

    It’s interesting you bring it up though, because the scenario you present is not much different from how things are CURRENTLY in the music industry. It’s not terribly hard to get the latest release online from any established artist (lesser-known acts can be a little more difficult…). Yet some people insist on going to Borders and paying nearly $20 for a CD. Why do you think that is? Is it because they’re afraid that the cops are going to come get them?

  61. Mr Fitch,
    I would substitute your illustration of wiring colour code with something like “trying to nail gelatinous IP to the wall.” Notwithstanding the prolixity of your reply, I have learned from it. I find what you term “natural IP” a complete muddle, but trust that you have accurately set forth its salient characteristics.
    In view of your remarks, I will maintain your membership in the “APPROVED” column, and I will look forward to my early retirement from the theft — er, forgive me, the liberation — of the works of prominent authors.
    Now, would the others be so white as to confirm their approval of the posted scenario, as Mr Fitch has so manfully done?

  62. MarkZ,
    St. Thomas enjoins us not merely to understand an opposing argument, but insofar as possible, to understand it as its advocates do. This is what I am looking for. Assuming that the suggestion that you might feel bad is a rhetorical flourish, I will maintain your membership in the APPROVED column.

  63. Terry, it is dismayingly easy to confuse the ‘liberation’ of intellectual property from its owners with the liberation of its owners from the holders of privilege (of copyright and patent).

    There exists such a confusion even within the free software movement, i.e. between those who would compel authors to surrender their unpublished work to the public without charge, and those who would restore to the purchasers of software the liberty to make copies and derivatives. Free as in speech, not as in beer.

    Take a leaf out of Thomas Paine’s book. The liberty of all is more important than the prosperity of a few, even if the latter do lobby the legislators so lucratively.

  64. Terry,
    Feel free to put me in that category. I certainly wouldn\’t advocate the alternative, which would be to publicly fund an agency designed basically to bust up your operation and put you behind bars. You can thank me later.

    But also don\’t consider me a potential investor. I think it\’s a hairbrained scheme that would bankrupt you (that is, assuming we don\’t also get the opportunity to eliminate \"bankruptcy\" while we\’re at it…).

  65. Sheldon, thanks.

    Terry wants to charge us with a no-IP scenario that sounds evil.

    The moment J.K. Rowling publishes her next new novel, I have my presses ready, and I immediately scan it, print a million copies — perserving her name as author — and rush them to all the stores, whereupon I become an overnight millionaire, sending not one penny to Miss Rowling herself.

    You immediately scan it. Immediately ? How long would scanning a 700 pages book take ? I\’m not a specialist. What about the numerous possible mishaps you\’ll have to check and correct ? Sounds intensive.

    You print a million copies. Again, how long would that take ? Where do your presses come from ? You seem awfully well-off for someone who\’s just about to turn millionnaire.

    You rush them to all the stores. How long would that take ? Did you map out all the stores in the country ? I don\’t know how it works. Let\’s say you\’re an alternative publisher. Don\’t you have to contact the stores ? Wouldn\’t there be some difficulty involved in selling a book twice ? Again, I have no idea, but sounds like it could take quite a while.

    You become an overnight millionnaire. You\’re gonna sell for a million in a day, even though the original publishers were there first ? Sounds very optimistic.

    You don\’t send one penny to Miss Rowling herself. Indeed. But Miss Rowling already got paid from the contract she entered into with the first publishers. So she\’s got her share of pennies already, and this will remain true whether you do your copying&selling or not. The main losers in all this would thus be the original publishers. But then I don\’t think we should refrain from the above scenario, just to preserve these guys\’ sales.

  66. “No shilly-shallying: do reply with ‘I fully approve/disapprove of the scenario described, which is in accord with my proposed abolition of existing intellectual property rights.” The scenario:
    The moment J.K. Rowling publishes her next new novel, I have my presses ready, and I immediately scan it, print a million copies — perserving her name as author — and rush them to all the stores, whereupon I become an overnight millionaire, sending not one penny to Miss Rowling herself.”

    No can do. But I can say this: I can disapprove of an action without thinking the state or anyone else should forcefully intervene. Dickens repeatedly sold manuscripts to an American publisher although he had no copyright in the U.S. and others put out “unauthorized” editions. His publisher was willing to pay him in order to be first to market. If you Google, you will probably find the case in which Tolkien (I think) had a book published by an unauthorized publisher here and a public campaign was launched on behalf of the “official” edition in order to see to it that he got the profits.

    In a free society many things may happen that offend me, even deeply. Not all of these things will be property violations. When they are not, there are ways of dealing with them that do not entail violence or the state.

  67. “Do correct me if I am wrong, but in any case do supply a manly answer.”

    Terry, you’re wrong. (See above.) Manly enough? What now?

  68. Seldon,
    “Wrong” might be out of context, since I haven’t fixed an opinion. But the very fact that it is you who have stated an anti-IP position means that it deserves serious consideration. Jeffrey Tucker at LRC is very much in the anti-IP camp also. But there are many counterexamples to your example from Dickens. For example, Jack Warner famously said that he had William Faulkner working for peanuts. And closer to home here in Texas, the publisher of Stephen Foster’s music effectively robbed him blind. Your last point touches the broader issue: What is to be the agent for retaliatory force on behalf of injured parties? Our common impulse to limit the scope of this force, even in retaliation, should not justify denying that there was an injury in the first place. The consensus of the forum seems to be: “Yes, there will certainly be injured parties; we hope they will not be severe; the market likely will alleviate them, but in any case we are willing to tolerate some injuries to intellectual creators.”

  69. Terry, I would say "insulted" rather than "injured." To call it "injury" is to beg the question. "Injury" already suggests a violation of person or property, which is precisely what is in dispute.

    As long as you are recording the "benefits" of copyright, it is only fair that you tote up the costs. Serious enforcement of copyright in this age would require a totalitarian state. I don’t think it’s worth the price.

  70. Crosbie Fitch wrote, “Thus if a poem written on a sheet of paper is stolen (from someone’s private possession), only the theft of paper and ink is recognised, and if a copy of the words is stolen, no theft is recognised to have occurred at all.”

    I am still just not understanding that last part, about “if a COPY of the words is stolen”. How can it be theft if it’s a copy? If I go into the library, copy a few pages from a book, then walk out with the copies, what have I stolen?!? The library still has the book, and I paid for the copies.

    Even without any IP laws, a stack of blank paper would still be less valuable than a stack of paper with things printed on it (well, depends on what is printed), just as a chunk of rock would in general be less valuable than one that had been chiseled into a beautiful statue, or a tub of water versus an ice sculpture, or a new sharp knife versus a dull, beat-up one. This doesn’t require any concept of intangible property, just that the physical matter itself is arranged in a more valuable configuration.

  71. Shay, it is not theft if you copy books in a library. Those books are open to the public. However, if you burgle a writer and copy an unpublished draft then it is IP theft. Theft is removal of material or intellectual work from someone’s private domain (to which you have not been permitted access).

    I appreciate it must be attractive to throw your hands up and simply deny the possibility of IP completely, to revert to a simpler world where only matter can constitute property, but people do have a natural exclusive right to their intellectual work, e.g. a natural ability to defend their writings against theft by burglars. The only unnatural aspect is the privilege of a monopoly (granted for the benefit of printers and manufacturers).

  72. This makes less and less sense. If you copy a book, even in a library, you’re still copying a book without the permission of the author. Isn’t that the whole point of intellectual property ? You own your intellectual work, therefore others need your permission to, among other things, replicate it. Hence, filesharing is illegal. Or do you mean to say that if the copy of the book has been legally acquired, then copying it is ok ? Cause that’s our point. If it has been illegally acquired, then there is theft of tangible property.

    Your scenario is weak. Private property condemns all burglars, whatever they do once inside. The burglar could not have made the copy without infringing on the author’s property rights, and so it follows that intellectual property is useless to protect his draft. It is, at best, an additionnal condemnation on him, but it is not the source. Obviously, if you want to keep a draft, that is, a tangible object, to yourself, you’re perfectly free to do so. That is possible because of private property.

  73. littlehorn, the point of natural intellectual property is to protect the natural rights of its owners, i.e. those who possess it.

    Concerning the need of permission from a privileged individual to make copies of your own property, you may be thinking of copyright which is a transferable privilege to exclude others from their natural right to make copies (a reproduction monopoly).

    The natural owner of an intellectual work is the natural possessor (creator or purchaser), and it is naturally they who decide who may or may not have access to their private domain and their possessions within it.

    I recognise that a burglar may remove intellectual work. You do not.

    Burglary isn’t the only situation in which it is important to recognise IP. One of the other situations is in the exchange of IP, e.g. for money. If you pay me for my draft manuscript I can give you blank sheets of paper, and you won’t complain because you can’t claim I have failed to deliver what should now be your intellectual property – you’re happy with just the paper (I can pour some ink on it if you want that too).

    Authors and other creators of intellectual work, and those who purchase it, need it recognised as intellectual property (not just material property). What is in conflict with natural rights, with individual liberty, is not private property (material or intellectual), but the state granted monopolies known as copyright and patent. Hence, I’m an apparently rare libertarian: a copyright abolitionist that recognises intellectual property.

  74. Fitch writes, “people do have a natural exclusive right to their intellectual work…”

    Repeating this endlessly will not make it so. Let’s have some argument, some rebuttal of the arguments that the anti-IP side makes.

  75. "the point of natural intellectual property is to protect the natural rights of its owners, i.e. those who possess it.\"

    When you can see the magician putting the rabbit in the hat, you know he\’s a lousy magician. That\’s what you\’re being, Fitch., a lousy magician. Moreover, despite repeated requests, you refuse to spell out your distinction between IP (natural) and copyright/patent (privilege). You seem to be the only one in the universe who sees a difference. Until you stop repeating yourself and start explaining yourself, I have conclude that you are a troll, who is not interested in intellectual discussion.

  76. Many apologies Sheldon, but it is those repeated requests I have been attempting to serve.

    The knack of explaining oneself without repetition is still beyond my reach, but I’m working on it.

    Please forgive my apparent lack of interest in intellectual discussion.

  77. I recognise that a burglar may remove intellectual work. You do not.

    Burglary isn’t the only situation in which it is important to recognise IP. One of the other situations is in the exchange of IP, e.g. for money. If you pay me for my draft manuscript I can give you blank sheets of paper, and you won’t complain because you can’t claim I have failed to deliver what should now be your intellectual property – you’re happy with just the paper (I can pour some ink on it if you want that too).

    Is “intellectual property” the only reason why books and manuscripts are different from a bunch of blank sheets with ink on it ? I don’t think so. If I pay for a manuscript, then I’m going to get a manuscript; if you give me blank sheets, these do not constitute a manuscript and that is a breach of contract. Again, “intellectual property” is not necessary to resolve those problems. The “problems” presented in this thread seem to always involve prior violations of principles extraneous to “IP”. As for the burglar, I should have said this earlier: this problem is impossible. What is the chance that someone is going to burgle an author, and copy the draft, without getting caught ? Even if he managed to do that, doesn’t the creation of something, from stolen property, mean it is equally stolen ? As Stephen Kinsella said,

    Consider the forging of a sword. If I own some raw metal (because I mined it from ground I owned), then I own the same metal after I have shaped it into a sword. I do not need to rely on the fact of creation to own the sword, but only on my ownership of the factors used to make the sword. And I do not need creation to come to own the factors, since I can homestead them by simply mining them from the ground and thereby becoming the first possessor. On the other hand, if I fashion a sword using your metal, I do not own the resulting sword. In fact, I may owe you damages for trespass or conversion.

    Against Intellectual Property, pp 37-38.

  78. Crosbie Fitch wrote, “However, if you burgle a writer and copy an unpublished draft then it is IP theft. Theft is removal of material or intellectual work from someone’s private domain (to which you have not been permitted access).”

    It’s removal even if I leave the author a copy of the work? What if I buy the book in a store, then make copies of that and sell in another country? I haven’t made any unpermitted access, and the author might never even find out that I was selling the copies, yet I have a feeling you’d still call this theft. What exactly has been stolen, and why didn’t the author notice immediately? Perhaps you might say that I “stole” the author’s potential profit in that country, but what if I instead wrote my own book on the same topic and sold it in that country, and it was so much better that nobody there would even be interested in your book? I’m sorry to say that at this point I wonder whether we are both speaking English here, as I’m not making sense of your use of “theft”, “removal”, etc.

  79. I think Crosbie is referring to property rights in unpublished work. If you copy the work out of a library copy or a store copy or any copy you procured legally, that’s fine to do what you’d like with it.

    The protection sought is when you’ve created some work and fixed it on paper or saved it on your hard drive, or whatever. You may have many personal, unpublished copies, but you have not chosen to publish them on the web or in book form or whatever. Crosbie would like to see a recognition of your property rights for this situation, so that you will have the right to arrange “first sale” of your work.

    Speaking as someone that Terry Hulsey would almost certainly add to his list, this is very sensible to me. (And I think this discussion has allowed me to better understand Mr. Fitch’s often cryptic views on this subject, although maybe I’m incorrect in my interpretation here.)

    However, isn’t this situation already covered by standard physical property rights? In order to get those private copies, there must be some form of breaking and entering? (How do we value the loss if there are now copies all over the place and no one is willing to make the payment for publication?)

  80. I wonder what Frank Zappa would have to say about this topic?

  81. Scott, one of course has a property right in one’s manuscript or drive, but why call that intellectual property? One owns a manuscript because one owned the paper or drive first. But it still is an error to say one owns the “ideas.”

  82. Theft and then publication of an unpublished work? I think whether it merits protection or not, it would be an uncommon situation. The random burglar would not have time nor inclination to find the work, let alone evaluate it for potential profit and then copy it. It would also likely be, as has been stated, a draft. Incomplete, in process. Just as someone might make a copy of a masterpiece painting in unfinished form… but would this person have the skill to finish it? Coherently? The author/creator alone can finish it in his/her style. Even if a confidant and advisor to the author who is aware of the work and has access to it were to choose to make and distribute an unauthorized copy, again, it would require much effort to finish it. It would require more effort to finish it coherently. It would likely require even more effort to rework it in his/her own style and at this point it’s pretty much his/her creation anyway. And after all this effort, as the market begins to reward the “thief” for “his/her” work, how long can he/she keep it up? How long until someone asks for another creation in a similar vein? Sooner or later, very likely, the true author will have ample chance to be seen as the talented mind and then be commissioned directly for more work.

    Seen this way, the author may actually thank the “thief” for taking the risk of investment to make his/her work known.

    Unless the “thief” is actually the more talented mind… then haven’t the people comprising the market won? Who wants IP to protect inferior ideas in the prevention of superior? Likely only those who have them.

  83. @Sheldon: I’m not saying that I’d call it intellectual property. I don’t care very much for the term myself, or the idea that ideas can be owned. I appreciate articles like yours that give me more ammunition in support of “Free Culture.”

    (Did one of your replies disappear, Sheldon? I thought initially you had made another comment about the breach-of-privacy angle of this.)

    @Michael: I agree that this is an uncommon situation, and don’t know if it warrants additional protections beyond current laws against trespassing (although I imagine laws around “digital” trespassing could use some refinements to keep up with technology).

    I’m not tracking with the rest of your comment, in particular:

    Seen this way, the author may actually thank the “thief” for taking the risk of investment to make his/her work known.

    Unless the “thief” is actually the more talented mind… then haven’t the people comprising the market won? Who wants IP to protect inferior ideas in the prevention of superior? Likely only those who have them.

    Theft isn’t really the right word, of course, but this would be a terrible violation of privacy and I can see no justification for it. Are you saying it’s okay for someone to copy private work whether it is intended for eventual publication or not, because the appropriator may be more talented and do better work with it? It’s okay to prematurely and without authorization publish the work of another (or publish work which was not intended to be shared at all) because the “market” may benefit from this? We may not have privacy? We may not have a personal domain?

    I’m not a supporter of IP — although I’m okay with using that term loosely to describe several unrelated concepts :-) — but your possible justifications for this kind of “breaking and copying” are troublesome.

  84. Scott, I’m not saying that any sort of theft, privacy invasion or any such action is okay. More I’m saying that it’s not something I want to see all sorts of tax dollars, government control, or anything else going to protect against. I think the cost to everyone of such actions by government is much more than the benefit to everyone or really anyone. I don’t have facts, numbers or any such thing. Just the belief that people do best when not coerced and they have to deal with the world without an overbearing parental figure such as the government watching out for them. People can understand and deal with the realities of what other people will do much better than they can deal with the psychosis that is the government’s “protection.” More like extortion of most for the benefit of some.

    What you’re thinking of as my justification for someone taking someone else’s private work is not justification, but rather pointing out the possibilities of the wronged party to turn it around to their benefit without having the backing of government. Reputation and ridicule are very powerful things. I don’t think it would take many examples of someone trying to benefit from someone else’s work to decide it’s not worth it. Take Milli Vanilli (spelling?) for example.

    The last comment of superior ideas versus inferior ones may have been out of place, but was in reference to the way that regulations and protections of the government are not about protecting everyone so much as they are about protecting the established businesses against upstart competitors with ideas that may or may not be better.

    So, to sum up, I don’t think it’s okay but I don’t think it’s worth spending hardly any collective effort to deal with, shame and disapproval are sufficient. And, the collective effort so far is rather detrimental to freedom and innovation.

  85. Sure — it seems this situation doesn’t have to be dealt with in a special way. Was just trying to understand Crosbie’s position, who (whom?) I think is a strong supporter of cultural freedom.

  86. Jim Spence…

    I am not sure that I can completely understand your comments. Would you be so kind as to expand on your reasoning a little more before I comment….

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