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It seems to me that the concept of greed carries with it an emotional aspect that is necessarily not reasonable. Such being the case, even in scenario A, the Las Vegas patron may make an unreasonable bet if he is carried away with greed. Perhaps he has been lucky enough to win $10,000.00 and with just one more lucky spin of the wheel he could have $20,000.00. Without the emotional aspect of greed, he may decide he does not want to risk what he has. However, he is so excited about having $20,000.00 that he forgoes his reasonable inclination and places his bet. Greed is discouraged and eventually punished in a fair and reasonable system. Greed is exacerbated in a system such as scenario B. In that case, all individuals get to suffer the consequences of greed even including those who are not greedy.

//Ed Holden
27 February 2009 at 10:26 am

I agree this could happen. The question is: under which scenario is it more likely to happen? At the social level, under which scenario is there more likely to be a cluster of such incidents?

//Sheldon Richman (author)
27 February 2009 at 10:29 am

Wonderful article, the point of this article is nothing new for me, but you have made the point eloquently.

Unfortunately, the use of the word \"greed\" is often being carelessly used by many speakers, as not just meaning self-interest or even selfishness, but as connoting criminal acts motivated by greed. I believe that it is important to force speakers to distinguish non-criminal and criminal acts motivated by self interest. Most people who blame greed for the current economic crisis, make no distinction between criminal and non-criminal acts of greed. For them, this is not a distinct, qualitative difference, but, more likely, just a difference in degree of greediness. To these moralists, all acts of greed would be morally reprehensible.

//Steven Hankin
27 February 2009 at 11:15 am

Thank you, Steven. You are quite right. Such people cannot distinguish between Michael Milken and Bernard Madoff.

//Sheldon Richman (author)
27 February 2009 at 11:24 am

\"Greed\" defined as pursuing self-interest (as did Milton Friedman) misses the liberal point. Greed, defined by Dictionary.com, is EXCESSIVE or RAPACIOUS desire. The key word here is \’excessive\’. People who pursue their self-interest, with disregard for the interests of other people.

In this sense, \"greed\" is a problem. Like a basketball player on the court who wants to win, that desire becomes a problem when he starts bribing the referees. That is where the greed problem lies. Businessmen who want victory by cheating, who want to entice the government into creating rules and regulations that will favor their business at the expense of the public the congressmen are sworn to serve… this type of greed has led to our current calamity.

Those guilty should be ousted and the free markets, the market operations that have given us the greatest standard of living in the world, should be protected by Washington once more.

//Robert Kinnett
27 February 2009 at 11:24 am

I realize my following query does not directly deal with your article-but just the same, I will take this an opportunity of asking you and your readers to help me with the following question:

First, I totally agree with you that the matter discussed in your article is a prime example of what is called “moral hazard.”

Yet, I confess that I have never understood why the idea that:
that a party, that is insulated from risk, will likely behave differently from the way it would behave if he were fully exposed to the risk, is referred to as “moral hazard.” What does morality have to do with this. Is this concept not simply an economic proposition describing the way that humans can be expected to act in certain type of situation. Steven Hankin

//Steven Hankin
27 February 2009 at 11:52 am

I have found it useful in the classroom to define “greed” as the pursuit of self-interest through involuntary exchange. Everyone is self-interested (just as gravity is universal). When self-interest is pursued through voluntary exchange the only way one can serve his own interest is to serve the interests of others.

//Charles Baird
27 February 2009 at 11:53 am

Mr. Kennett, I would like to provide my own response to your comment.
I don’t know one draws the line between excessive and non-excessive greed. The dictionary defines greed as: a rapacious desire for more than one needs or deserves of food, wealth or power. I certainly have no way of determining how much of each of these you or anyone else needs or deserves and I don’t want Government making such determinations. By the way, is this determination of greed not the basis for Communism (“each according to his needs”}.

Yet, let’s go with your greed concept of excessive desire. You appear to contend that personal greed is the source of this economic disaster – as greed “that entices the government into creating rules and regulations that will favor their business at the expense of the public..”

I don’t blame the businessman from seeking rules and regulations that will favor him. In many cases, if he doesn’t do this his competitors may do this at his expense. He is merely acting in his own self interest call it greed it you wish.
Yet, I would argue that the underlying problem is not personal greed, but is a systemic problem: that Congress has taken on the power to enact such rules and regulations–a power, that was not envisioned by the drafters of our Constitution and, if fairly read, was not permitted by the Constitution.

//Steven Hankin
27 February 2009 at 12:30 pm

The problem is not greed, but that some believe there is a way to govern and thus, reduce greed. It does not matter how many regulations are put in place, using anyone\’s self definition of greed will not prevent some \"greedy\" person from getting around those regulations. Mr. Richman, you are absolutely correct. The freedom to fail is the only solution to control someone pursuing their self interest.

//MIKE HILL
27 February 2009 at 12:44 pm

That’s a key point, Mike. Much of the economic turmoil is related to a phenomenon known as “regulatory arbitrage,” in which more-risky actions replace less-risky actions simply to avoid regulations. It’s the law of unintended consequences. Regulations dictating capital requirements for banks are a prime stimulus to regulatory arbitrage.

//Sheldon Richman (author)
27 February 2009 at 12:50 pm

Robert, you are confusing greed with fraud or immorality. Even when defined as excessive, greed doesn\’t mean you disregard the interests of others in a manner in which it harms them.

All desire above and beyond what you need to sustain yourself is greed.

You don\’t need new shoes, you want them. The shoes you have now might be dirty and a bit worn, but they suffice for you to survive. Your wanting new shoes doesn\’t mean you disregard anyone else\’s well being. Your purchasing new shoes where the money might have benefited another \"needy\" person does not mean you are harming that person by not giving him/her your shoe money. On the contrary your purchasing new shoes is actually helping quite a few people (the persons who made them, shipped them, sold them to you), even though your action can also be deemed greedy.

So, greed does not necessitate you disregard another person\’s interest. Your morality does. They are not the same thing.

//Forest
27 February 2009 at 3:06 pm

Greed…morality…consider this:

A – On one hand we have the Bernie Madoffs and other Ponzi schemers. And, CEO salaries and bonuses are perceived as way too high because CEO and BOD members are in a \"union club\" where they quietly keep raising salaries vs. stockholders and employees. A sort of high society AAW union in effect.

B – On the other hand we have Stanley Tam who built churches around the world with company profits and wrote \"God Owns My Business,\" and Tom C. of Toms of Maine where 10% of pretax profits go to charities, and co-ops like in the worlds of health foods and electric energy where their very structure prevents events like in A.

The issue before us all, in part, is one of what society ultimately will prevent, allow, and encourage. Given the stupidity of the Republican legislators doing runaway spending when they had power, and the stupidity of recently visible banking CEOs giving themselves huge bonuses, society is likely to cause regulations that stop the high-level nonsense and encourage more \"moral\" allowances of wealth. Society, via the Democrats, are also very likely to take from the \"filthy rich\" and give to the (unworthy and loafing) poor, with some possible gains to the middle class. We will see.

There will be some big changes as society exacts its revenge. Too bad the politicians like Carter, Dodd, Frank, even Bush, and the political campaign donating CEOs at Freddie and Fannie, can\’t get taken to task along with the Madoffs, etc. as kind, stupid, and vote-buying politicians certainly precipitated the current housing and related messes.

In short, when CEOs and other large wealth producer-gatherers are not seen by society at large as using the large amounts of money for the good of other people, an angry society will eventually nail their butts to the wall. We are perhaps seeing this with the election of an Obama type community organizer.

One might say the problem is lack of moral upbringing, weakness in human character…and not enough policing or other controls to stop the thievery before it gets out of hand. Like the SEC was supposed to do.

Cultural anthropologists observe that over 1000 tribes-cultures-nations-societies have come and gone since recorded or unearthed history. And maybe no societal structure will work until the Second Coming happens.

//Bob Heltman
27 February 2009 at 4:57 pm

In my study of economics, an example that has been oft used to describe greed is to look at one’s marriage. I married the smartest & prettiest woman I could find because I was greedy. I also went to college because I was greedy. I applied for good jobs and wanted to be selected over other candidates because I was greedy.
Many believe that the Ken Lays and Bernard Madoffs of the world were also greedy, but their downfall was their incompetence. They could deliver what they promised so they took the Stalin approach and told their customers that they had indeed delivered.
Furthermore I do not expect CEO’s to supply goods and services for me out of the kindness of their hearts, but because they too are greedy and seek my return business and my endorsement of their enterprise. As far as I am concerned, CEO’s can make as much as their stockholders will allow.

“I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good.” Adam Smith (1723-1790)

“Has any act of selfishness ever equaled the carnage perpetrated by disciples of altruism?” Ayn Rand (1905-1982)

//Dennis Bowland
27 February 2009 at 5:30 pm

Milton Friedman, bless his soul, puts it well here:
http://tinyurl.com/2tcq2s

//Sheldon Richman (author)
27 February 2009 at 6:04 pm

I have what I believe is a working definition of greed. It is sort of a Taoist definition. A Yin-Yang sort of phenomenon which is largely dependent upon one’s personal prosperity vantage point.

When someone who has more than you wants more, they’re greedy.
When someone who has less than you wants more, they’re ambitious.
The two phenomena are actually one.

As was brutally and irrefutably proved in the USSR, when you try to socialize your way out of greed, you inevitably end up destroying ambition into the bargain.

I love Mr. Baird’s definition of greed as pursuit of self-interest through involuntary exchange. As noted by George Washington, “…Government is force!…” What a fertile environment for this type of exchange!

The greed/ambition yin/yang phenomenon may be visualized as a magnet in the shape of a coin. Heads is the positive side, in this case ambition. Tails is the negative side, or greed.

The difficulty arises when governments, over-privileged due to duped voters or oppressed peasants, is granted a sufficiency of power to attempt to separate greed from ambition in order to dispose of greed, while leaving ambition to thrive. As any student of physics can tell you, no matter how finely you slice our imaginary coin, every resulting slice will still have both a positive and a negative pole. But they sliced away with abandon in the good ol’ USSR, resulting in an ever weaker market force, until finally, greed and ambition had been decimated to such an extent as to be utterly ineffective as a wealth creator in what remained of the market. Ultimately the only meaningful expression of greed remained in the political apparatus, where greed for political control destroyed millions of lives. In a free market greed loses its bestiality, as described by Mr. Richman. In an all-powerful government it is given free rein. In any event, it is, as Mr. Richman so eloquently states, an inseparable, eternal characteristic of human nature. It may be largely tamed by a free market, but can never be excised from humanity. If it finds expression in our government, exercising powers beyond those expressly enumerated by our constitution, may God help us.

//William Reed
27 February 2009 at 10:36 pm

Mr Reed, I really liked your comment-I think you have hit this on the head with your two sided coin analysis of greed and ambition. I have never heard this before. Is this your own idea? In any event I appreciated you conveying this valuable insight.

//Steve Hankin
27 February 2009 at 11:23 pm

I agree to some extent. So let’s take this principle and make a natural extension. If a financial institution is allowed to fail in order to be “held accountable”, who exactly is held accountable? The Board of Directors or the company execs? Sure, they lose their jobs, but I am sure they will cry themselves to sleep at night on their huge piles of money from their exorbitant salaries, stock plans, and golden parachutes. That leaves the employees and investors holding the bag and my 401K pays the price. There is no risk of accountability for these high priced management teams currently, and that is not the fault of the government, but the companies they work for – that needs to change in order for your example to be truly effective.

//James
28 February 2009 at 2:51 pm

I don’t think it’s necessary to embrace the g-word. Individuals pursue their own goals (a different g-word) and purposes, which vary from person to person and might be entirely “self-centered” or highly altruistic. The question is what institutional arrangements give people the best opportunity by-and-large to pursue their own goals while minimizing opportunities or incentives for predatory behavior.

//Allan Walstad
28 February 2009 at 4:37 pm

“Greed, for the lack of a better word, is good” Okay, so I quoted from an Oliver Stone movie. Sorry. That line belonged to fictional character Gordon Gekko, the greedy corporate raider from the movie ‘Wall Street.’ But the guy had a point. In the right setting , greed is good because it keeps people accountable and honest. For example, so-called corporate raiders play an important role in exposing corporate incompetence and malfeasance. The same can be said of short sellers. Short sellers exposed Enron for the house of cards it was and caused that company’s downfall. Enron’s collapse was necessary because it simply wasn’t a viable company. What if the government had intervened then and bailed it out? But who does the government assail and harass? Corporated raiders and short sellers are often attacked, indicted, and convicted. Indeed, the SEC banned short selling last fall in a boneheaded attempt to prop up stock prices. But it is the short sellers and corporated raiders, motivated by self-interest, who do a much better job of holding corporate managers accountable. Short selling and corporate takeovers are the free market’s way of regulatiing the economy and it is far more effective at keeping the system honest than governmental regulation which relies on disinterested and unaccounatble salaried bureaucrats.

//Tim Kelly
28 February 2009 at 7:28 pm

There is no such thing as greed; it is a subjective definition rooted in one\’s derivations of life; means nothing except unto the individual; has no value except to the individual and those who wish to disapprove of another\’s personal choice(s)

one man\’s greed is another man\’s living wage

it matters not

<b><u>all interest in life is self-interest</b></u>

selfish or selfishness is a manipulation by those that wish to control others\’ choices, thoughts and behaviors for <i>their</i> own personal self-interest

I defy anyone to reflect their choices in life and that each choice was not out of a personal self-interest

self-interest is forged from any individual seeking desire, either toward life or toward death; toward freedom or toward bondage

//Greg
1 March 2009 at 11:44 pm

There is no such thing as greed; it is a subjective definition rooted in one’s derivations of life; means nothing except unto the individual; has no value except to the individual and those who wish to disapprove of another’s personal choice(s)

one man’s greed is another man’s living wage

it matters not

ALL INTEREST IN LIFE IS SELF-INTEREST

selfish or selfishness is a manipulation by those that wish to control others’ choices, thoughts and behaviors for THEIR own personal self-interest

I defy anyone to reflect their choices in life and that each choice was not out of a personal self-interest

self-interest is forged from any individual seeking desire, either toward life or toward death; toward freedom or toward bondage

//Greg
1 March 2009 at 11:45 pm

There is a kind of \"greed\" that drives ambition: A person desires (for whatever reason) to improve his lot in life and so becomes motivated to do whatever is within his capacity and the law to acheive his goal.

There is also a kind of \"greed\" that drives crime: A person wants to improve his lot in life, but has no desire to work within the law to acheive that goal. Rather, this person chooses to plot and scheme to take another\’s possessions, often couching his plans in moral platitudes about helping others or justified because the target of his theft is \"too rich\" or \"greedy\" and therefore deserves to be robbed.

Doesn\’t the problem lie in what we choose to do with the desire, rather than the desire itself? Isn\’t it just sloppy logic to identify the initial desire for self-improvement as \"greed?\" Isn\’t \"greed\" (with all its negative connotations) really the avarice and ill will that grows in the heart of lazy and violent men?

I believe that liberal policies in government are the result of the latter scenario, and in fact exacerbate the problem by removing consequence from action!

//Dennis White
2 March 2009 at 12:38 pm

The discussion of greed shows the hazards of trying to establish ethics without a standard reference: everyone defines greed as it pleases him. The Western concept originated with the Bible. It is vague on definition, but narrows it more than public discussion does. In the Bible, greed is often used with envy and covetousness, both carrying the idea of wanting for oneself what rightly belongs to another. It also carries the idea of ignoring the poor. But it certainly means something far more serious than simply wanting more than what you have, otherwise the Bible would contradict itself when it encourages people to work hard and save in order to provide for the future, leave an inheritance and help others. Great wealth is often seen as a blessing from God if it has not been accumulated through theft or fraud.

Greed is tangled up with motive. Only God can justly discern motives, so anyone, even a preacher, who judges another of being greedy is putting himself in the place of God, and that’s a dangerous seat for a human. Previous generations wisely decided to leave the determination to God and concentrate on preventing fraud and theft, acts which humans are fully capable of discerning. Today, people fixate on greed, which they have no ability to judge, and ignore theft and fraud (especially the state kind), which they can identify and God will hold them responsible for doing nothing about.

//Roger McKinney
2 March 2009 at 3:59 pm

Umm…just out of curiosity, how many of you in this string have invested or rolled-in your dollars in American markets over the last, let’s say,,, eight months? Because we NEED ALL YOUR MONEY, not just your confidence, right now! Seriously. Just a middle-class over-educated, under-employed pissed-off American who wants to blame everyone, including myself, for the current crisis. THAT is HUMAN NATURE. Saying that if even 40% of all adults in this country voted intelligently at all level rather than drinking beers and watching American Idol etc.then we could have curtailed this dismal abyss, or that if the neoclassical know-it-nothings in Washington could have, let’s say, watched American Idols etc. instead of exerting their bastardized beliefs on this country, then we could have escaped this, or that if a three-party system existed instead of this lame dichotemy we have in place,,,then we could all be in the status-quo right now. Truth be told, I think the answers lie in the science of things. The sheer SCIENCE of our planet. Don’t pretend to be academic on it, but I know what I see…and seeing is believing.
But for the sake of things, let’s say it’s just a hiccup, and keep on keepin’ on!! Happy investing, y’all:)

//Justine Flaherty
3 March 2009 at 2:51 am

Roger, while I understand you have your derivations for life, you negate our government and personal individual freedoms of others when you invoke a deity of any kind with regard to your arguments.

There are those who have no derivation for such subjective philosophy as you have chosen for yourself, their disenfranchisement ensues, yet it cannot be denied that we are a nation of pluralism whereby our Constitution upholds individual freedoms, not collective ideology.

I respond to your post because you are attributing the word “greed” to something that does not exist except within you by which you believe someone has more than what YOU THINK they should have or obtain.

Where is personal freedom in that thought process?

Should you disclose your personal wealth, how can you be certain we would not judge you as greedy or that someone within our world would not view it the same? And with this accusation toward you comes justifications and rationalizations for your personal wealth obtained, by what authority would you justify your position?

My point: greed is subjective and a means by victimizing the person who reveals such ignorance by utilization of the word.

How can you subjectively decide what another person deserves or has the power to obtain for the self? Why do you get to decide? What criteria are you utilizing or measure are you comparing by which to conclude “greed”?

There is no interest that is not self-interest

No matter how a person thinks that his choices are for good or bad intentions, the choice is personal, subjective and always in the self-interest toward outcomes of what the individual desires to achieve.

//Greg
4 March 2009 at 8:28 am

I agree with much of what you have written but would disagree with your point that there is no such thing as greed.

I would offer that greed is a matter of the conscience. It matters not whether that conscience is a derivative of a personal moral code, an abstract of ethical philosophy, or ones devotion to and belief in a deity. Greed occurs when in the mind of the individual greed has occurred. Each individual can only define greed as it has meaning to himself. While every individual knows within their own conscience when they are being greedy, no one knows when another is being greedy. My greed is matter of concern between me and my God, not between me and you, and not between me and your God. Neither is it a matter between me and the state.

There is no proper concern for society (or state) relative to greed. Do I acquire what I want by non-criminal means? If so, then who is there but God to judge why I wish to acquire what I want? Will I serve only my own interests with that which I gain or will I use it to serve some greater good? For that I will trust God to judge me and no other because no other is qualified to make that judgment. Neither am I of any other man.

\"Give unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar’s and unto God that which belongs to God.\" My conscience does not belong to Caesar. That is the essence of the separation of church and state.

//Stephen Mosier
7 March 2009 at 7:56 am

It’s interesting that your religions professor friend sees greed as the foundation of the market, but apparently doesn’t recognize it as the foundation of state action.

Leaving aside the small matter that the “market” that failed was state capitalist to its core…

One satisfies greed in a genuinely free market by appealing to the interest of others. One satisfies greed in the political arena by the use of compulsion: using government force to prevent others from competing with your goods and services at a lower price or higher quality, prohibiting the consumer from meeting his own needs without a license, creating artificial scarcities, etc.

The religion professor might want to look up the phrase “Baptists and Bootleggers.”

//Kevin Carson
8 March 2009 at 2:41 am

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